3D Printed Dentures: How Stratasys Is Changing Digital Dentistry | Chris Kabot | EODP #31

00:00:00:26 - 00:00:07:19 Speaker 1 But now that we can do 3D five nanometer LCD, you know, I think that the age of DLP is number 20 years ago. 00:00:07:24 - 00:00:11:19 Speaker 2 It was that was barely heard of in college research projects. 00:00:11:21 - 00:00:31:43 Speaker 1 When am I going to be able to print that denture, to print that hybrid to put on top. And remember back at the time, they're telling me never, it's never going to be a possibility. How can we start to leverage AI for a full on denture setups? That's going to be the waterfall moment for us for digital dentures is when we can truly rely on AI to make us more efficient when we're setting teeth. 00:00:31:45 - 00:00:46:07 Speaker 1 Again, I really feel like we're just scratching the surface that we're at the beginning of the golden age of jet printing. 00:00:46:12 - 00:01:12:53 Speaker 3 Welcome back to the Evolution of Dental Podcast. Brought to you by Evolution Dental Science. We share the stories of the people and the technology shaping the world of dentistry. I'm your host, Rob Norton. Today's guest has spent the better part of two decades working at the intersection of where dental materials meet manufacturing. He came up with the application side for the Envision Tech, back when you still had to convince people in dental labs that 3D printing actually has a place in the dental world. 00:01:12:55 - 00:01:28:21 Speaker 3 He ran R&D for one of the country's biggest denture providers, and today he runs the entire dental business globally for Stratus. As vice president and head of the dental Division, Chris Cabot, welcome to the Evolution of Dental podcast. How are you today? 00:01:28:26 - 00:01:42:38 Speaker 1 I'm good, I'm good. Thanks for having me. You know, longtime fan of all things dental technology and people actually speaking about it. So I think it will be exciting to have a conversation here and just, you know, nerd out on dental technology, which I'm always going to do. 00:01:42:40 - 00:01:56:31 Speaker 3 You were telling me just before we started recording that you had kind of a different path into, into dentistry. That started a little bit more focused on, say, orthodontics, and now you're in 3D printing. How did that come about? 00:01:56:36 - 00:02:13:55 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, again, if we look at 3D printing, what are the two hot spots for it in dentistry? It's orthodontics and it's prosthodontics. So you know, I started on the orthodontics side. You know, I'm here in metro Detroit where I'm born and raised and still happy to to raise my family now, today. And, you know, I grew up in a dental family. 00:02:13:55 - 00:02:30:38 Speaker 1 So my dad's an orthodontist. We own a small orthodontic lab here in metro Detroit. And in our family, once become a teenager, you got to give jobs. So what a better deal than to go work at the family lab and and make some money. And instead of dad having to pay me allowance, I at least had to work for it in his eyes. 00:02:30:48 - 00:02:50:58 Speaker 1 So my first job was, you know, scraping my knuckles and poking my fingers with with wire while I was working on, on the model bench and being able to make, you know, dental appliances by hand. I remember the first product I made by hand was just a conventional, you know, Essex retainer, a thermal form of sucked down whatever appliances that I put together in the lab. 00:02:51:00 - 00:03:12:37 Speaker 1 He wanted me to deliver it to the patient so I could see how what I manufactured, actually, how that impacted the patient experience and just the overall experience inside the clinic. And I think I really connected to, hey, if I do this inside the lab, I'll be able to save this amount of time. Or maybe the patient only has to come back this many times versus the, you know, ten times they would if I did it another way. 00:03:12:38 - 00:03:42:19 Speaker 1 So I think that's where really the value of production and of dental technology click for me. And then, you know, I went off to, to university to try and follow my dad's footsteps. I was a biology major, was trying to become a biomedical engineer. And while I was in university, I got introduced to a local dental technician in Dennis that had invented a novel way of a surgical guide leveraging new 3D printing and different CAD Cam technologies essentially help them create the digital workflow. 00:03:42:21 - 00:04:03:33 Speaker 1 You know, we were manipulating blender or macro out blender and using geometric and materialized magic software to kind of bring everything together to create a cohesive model and surgical guide ecosystem so doctors could place implants in the right place. And, you know, I went back to my den and said, hey, this stuff is this is going to be how we make everything in dentistry in the future. 00:04:03:33 - 00:04:16:09 Speaker 1 We're not going to make anything by hand. Then I raise money to go out and buy object 3D printers, to be able to print our models and our surgical guides and, and now leading that company. So it's it's a fun, full circle moment for me. 00:04:16:14 - 00:04:17:26 Speaker 4 That had to be. 00:04:17:31 - 00:04:35:50 Speaker 3 Thinking that thinking the telling people that the really manufacturing especially 3D printing, which it was CAD cam as it were, was only just beginning to flirt with the dental industry. I mean, we had things like lava and the three M scanners, and people are spraying powder in mouths and trying to scan with that. And it's like, this is the future. 00:04:35:50 - 00:04:41:43 Speaker 3 And then here you are talking about 3D printing at that point, which no one I mean, 20 years ago, that was that. 00:04:41:43 - 00:04:42:45 Speaker 2 Was barely heard. 00:04:42:45 - 00:04:51:50 Speaker 3 Of in college research projects. What was the what was it like trying to convince folks that that is where the future was? Like, what was that journey like? 00:04:51:55 - 00:05:12:14 Speaker 1 Yeah, it's it's really funny. I think in 2010 is when we first got our IP and started to, you know, spread it around the country and did a lot of research with a lot of different dental schools. It's it's actually where I got to meet Andy Jackson for the first time. We were both doing research at at Ohio State University, happened to be sitting next to each other at a at a conference. 00:05:12:14 - 00:05:42:02 Speaker 1 And I remember being a young, dumb 20 year old kid going in and telling these really sophisticated oral surgeons in prosthodontics how they should be doing their cases. So, I mean, I remember sitting in a huge audience lecturing to both the residents and the oral surgery residents and members talking about prosthetic driven surgical planning and surgical guides. And I remember telling the, the, the group that, you know, it's great because you can just put the surgical guides into the hands of the oral surgeons that say, drill here, stupid. 00:05:42:02 - 00:05:59:43 Speaker 1 And the prosthodontics all started dying laughing, and the oral surgeons didn't make a beat. So, you know, I knew I, I knew I had a tough spot and it reminded me to be a little bit more diplomatic and political at a young age. But man, I was 20 years old. I wasn't even able to drink yet. And I'm out there telling these guys how they should be doing surgeries. 00:05:59:45 - 00:06:14:45 Speaker 1 It was, you know, it was a fun time. And it was. On being able to convince the overall dental community that what we can do with this digital technology and what we can do with 3D printing, we're really just scratching the surface. The futures can be a lot different. 00:06:14:50 - 00:06:28:50 Speaker 3 That's that's pretty incredible. So you said you're 20 years old up front of talking to everybody. And where does it go from there? So you go through college. You are seeking a career in 3D production at that point. Yeah. 00:06:28:52 - 00:06:49:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. I mean, we had a startup, right? So like, we were really one of the first companies doing we had a lot of IP around how to orient different data files, how to do anatomical model printing. You figure out a way to replicate bone density and be able to 3D print that out. And I think we're all used to like barium sulfate markers and radio opaque markers. 00:06:49:12 - 00:07:06:16 Speaker 1 I patented a way to actually use air as a way to use as a reference to align different data files together. And then I think, you know, our real claim to fame and the IP that is still used in many different processes today was the stackable surgical guide. We were really the first to do that. And, you know, it was really incredible. 00:07:06:16 - 00:07:25:14 Speaker 1 And I remember going to the the owners of of object, which now Stratasys at the time seeing hey like we can do these cool stackable surgical guides, we can print anatomical models, but we can't actually print the prosthetic. To go on top of the surgical guide. We have to mill that. Like, when am I going to be able to print that denture, to print that hybrid, to put on top? 00:07:25:14 - 00:07:56:21 Speaker 1 And remember back at the time, they're telling me never, it's never going to be a possibility. So it's fun to look at how much technology's advanced to now where, you know, now we're actually 3D printing out biocompatible dentures and hybrids that, you know, can last for the long term. And part of why I'm so excited and why join Stratasys after running manufacturing for affordable dentures and implants for the last five years before I joined Stratasys, I had first hand seat to a lot of these different technologies, whether it was with DLP or whether it was with milling or whether it's with Poly Jet. 00:07:56:26 - 00:08:13:14 Speaker 1 When we look at milling, you know, we could replicate the esthetics, we could get good durability, but what we didn't get was the ability to scale at a good price point. So that's part of why I came to Stratasys is I believe that is going to be how we manufacture for the way forward, because it's the best of all worlds. 00:08:13:14 - 00:08:21:02 Speaker 1 It's scalable, its esthetic, and we're about to cross the strength frontier, which is really the last horizon to conquer. 00:08:21:07 - 00:08:36:45 Speaker 3 Apologia is incredibly exciting, especially for a nerd like me. Like so for those who don't know the difference between, say, DLP or LEDs or poly jet or even FDM printers, what's different about Poly Jet that makes it so unique? 00:08:36:50 - 00:08:59:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, it's the ability to print with multi materials and multi-color. So, you know, during my time at Envision Tech developing a lot of their first generation direct print applications, I always hated competing against Poly Jet for certain applications where accuracy and multi material were paramount. Right. So you know anything that's going to require multiple colors, anything else can require multiple materials. 00:08:59:24 - 00:09:21:48 Speaker 1 That's where it's just such an advantage over any other technologies. And it's right now today the only, you know, regulated FDA cleared solution that can print polychromatic and also have that biocompatible nature to it. So I think what makes it unique is the fact that you have the true ability to replicate nature and the, you know, the best technicians in the world by leveraging a digital workflow. 00:09:21:48 - 00:09:40:09 Speaker 1 I think we all know that with with dope, these are single materials. These are single resins. It still requires a ton of labor and a ton of technique to be able to get something good out of a DLP printed denture or hybrid. And that's just something that we're not going to have to compromise on in the future with Poly Jet, because we're able to print in a polychromatic fashion. 00:09:40:09 - 00:10:06:07 Speaker 1 So that's what gets me most excited about Poly Jet. And again, I really feel like we're just scratching the surface that we're at the beginning of the golden age of jet printing. It's why I joined Envision Tech the time I did, I thought we were beginning of the golden age of DLP. And, you know, I think we there's not much more we can do with DLP printing at this point to be able to advance the frontier outside of more highly filled ceramic materials, and being able to do that in a in a reasonable fashion. 00:10:06:07 - 00:10:11:16 Speaker 1 But I think with Poly Jet, we're just scratching the surface at what's possible for us in the future. 00:10:11:21 - 00:10:34:00 Speaker 3 It's really incredible to finish a 3D print and look at it. And first of all, the supports no longer being a huge hindrance to what you can print is a is an unbelievable not just labor saving prospect, but also just the quality of the final product. But to see something come out of the printer ready to go, like with beautiful multiple color. 00:10:34:00 - 00:10:58:28 Speaker 3 And this isn't a this isn't a prosthetic here. This is just a model that we printed on one of our poly jet printers from Stratus that is taken from a regular inter oral 3D scan and just the the level of anatomical color and realism and detail just on a model, much less what you can do with with dentures, with this technology, what's what's one of the sillier, funnier things you've 3D printed? 00:10:58:38 - 00:11:15:31 Speaker 1 Oh let's see. Well, I mean, I was we're a blast week in is only they had like a Goku from like from Dragon Ball game. So if you like if you put if you put it in front of a fan, his hair would actually like blow because it was out of different materials. That was pretty cool. 00:11:15:36 - 00:11:16:52 Speaker 3 That's incredible. 00:11:16:55 - 00:11:37:43 Speaker 1 Opportunities in the entertainment industry with Poly Jet is endless. Actually, you probably be not surprised to hear that. It's in many, many movies. You see a lot of college up props, but you would never know it because they look no different. And then also in the wearables industry, you know, a lot of the big wearable companies, whether it be Apple heavy, Microsoft, you name it, they all use college at in their production. 00:11:37:43 - 00:11:49:36 Speaker 1 It's not just for for rapid prototyping anymore. So that and think about like AI is making cat designs so different, especially for like basic CAD modeling. Some of the software. 00:11:49:40 - 00:12:14:26 Speaker 3 I was playing around that with that the other day. Like there's a plug in now for Claude that you can use with fusion 360 and blender. I haven't really messed with that part of it, but without the plugin I was talking, I don't remember what it was. I was working with God and we were. I was joking about this picture I saw of a guy riding a lobster, which is obviously AI, and I was like, well, when can you print me a lobster to ride? 00:12:14:28 - 00:12:28:19 Speaker 3 And it was again, it was a joke, but it's an AI, so it doesn't totally get the joke and what it did, and it gives it automatically on its own. Came up with a very low poly resolution, but like it came up with an STL of a lobster. 00:12:28:24 - 00:12:46:00 Speaker 3 Oh, I didn't see you there. Hey y'all, it's Robert with the Evolution of Dental podcast. If you love these stories and you want to see more guests, more content and help the show, please remember to share it. Like it? Subscribe to our channel and hit that little notification bell if you're watching on YouTube so you can get notified of our new episodes. 00:12:46:02 - 00:13:14:38 Speaker 3 New episodes drop every Friday. Follow us on all the socials. You'll see all the latest content. Looking forward to seeing you there. As a technician, looking at something coming directly out of the printer in full color with no need to assemble teeth to denture base or any other components like that. Like lifelike real color with no well, not no supports, but can you can you talk to us a little bit about what the time saving aspects of that are involved in? 00:13:14:40 - 00:13:16:16 Speaker 3 Like what are some of the processes. 00:13:16:16 - 00:13:16:31 Speaker 2 There. 00:13:16:33 - 00:13:20:52 Speaker 3 Or results from it that may have even surprised you? 00:13:20:57 - 00:13:42:54 Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah. I mean, I think it's no secret that the dental industry is experiencing a labor crisis, whether that's inside the clinic with hygienists and assistance or whether that's inside the laboratory with technicians. So I think we're all searching for ways that we can minimize the labor burden on the laboratory so that we can scale quicker and be more efficient and get turnaround times better. 00:13:42:55 - 00:14:00:57 Speaker 1 So I think part of what we see with Poly Jet is because the supports are you can wash them away. There's a lot of opportunity for automation specifically around automation of support mobile right, where you can put the, you know, the full part into a washing machine essentially, or a tumbler. And out comes a part that's support free. 00:14:01:00 - 00:14:17:21 Speaker 1 You know, it's not like with DLP or with SLA, where the material you support is the same material that you use in your model or your end use part, which means you always have to compromise the surface. I mean, this is what I found firsthand when I was starting my first company is should we use DLP SLA or should we use Poly Jet? 00:14:17:24 - 00:14:36:57 Speaker 1 Well, if you have multiple surfaces that you can't compromise, well, you can really only use poly jet because it allows you to have best in class global accuracy. I think that's the big deal. Here is what supports that you have to remove. You're always going to either have a divot or you're going to have a stump where that support was right. 00:14:37:00 - 00:14:57:09 Speaker 1 And that can be very caustic on how you're going to either fit that prosthetic onto a patient or how you're going to, you know, stack another surgical guide on top of that, that base frame, so you don't have to make any compromises. I think that's that's part of why it's so I think well suited for the future is because it's got that opportunity to be automated. 00:14:57:09 - 00:15:11:45 Speaker 1 And we've got the opportunity to having, you know, best in class accuracy. So you really don't have to compromise anything. You don't have to, you know, try and find a way or work around because the technology is just well suited to being able to be automated. 00:15:11:50 - 00:15:16:50 Speaker 3 How would you say that the material compared to some of the DLP stuff that's out there? 00:15:16:55 - 00:15:34:19 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think this is what gets me most excited about polished is we're we're just entering the realm of being able to print more viscous materials. You know, that's always been the holdup with Poly jet is in order to print out of these sophisticated print heads, you have to have material that is really low, viscous, like, almost like water. 00:15:34:19 - 00:15:56:31 Speaker 1 And well, that's great. The problem is, is that you lose on mechanical properties. You know, if you've ever printed with any of these high end DLP materials or these highly filled ceramic materials, but almost like peanut butter right there, super biscuits. And from that viscosity we get better mechanical properties. So that's one of the challenges with poly jet is not being able to print those viscous with materials that have better mechanical properties. 00:15:56:31 - 00:16:27:01 Speaker 1 But with the advancements in material science, with the advancements in the printhead technology. And this is why I'm saying it's beginning of the golden age of apologetic is these print hands are getting more robust. They're getting more capable of printing higher viscosities. And with that means we're not going to have to have the same trade offs that we had in the past with the old legacy printhead technologies, which is going to really usher in, I believe, a new era of 3D printing, because we're not going to have to rely on some of these water down materials that don't have kind of properties that we need. 00:16:27:01 - 00:16:28:14 Speaker 1 And downstream. 00:16:28:19 - 00:16:57:31 Speaker 3 The integration of multi materials, multicolor really expands the applications you have there. What are what are some of the things about that that have really shifted how you look at 3D printing and how you think maybe technicians should approach it because I, I not to go too far off into the weeds, but I feel I feel like you have a really good point there where you wouldn't use the same vehicle, let's say, to drive across country as you might use to drive around town or on the racetrack versus hauling cargo. 00:16:57:33 - 00:17:16:28 Speaker 3 Right? So if you look at, say, DLP printers is like this is printing your models. They don't need to be multicolored. I mean, it's fun. The one I have here on my desk is great, but at the end of the day, you don't really need a multicolored model to do, you know, thermal forming to do, you know, trays and aligners, but dentures, surgical guides. 00:17:16:28 - 00:17:24:19 Speaker 3 What are some other exciting applications that you have coming down the pipeline? Do you see a Crown material coming on the horizon there too? 00:17:24:24 - 00:17:51:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, of course, think we're all waiting for the day where we don't have to mill crowns anymore, right? But I mean, that's only going to happen when we've got, you know, printing and printing technologies that can mimic those mechanical properties. And of course, the esthetics that come with with high end crown and bridge. You know, I think when I look back on my, my days with DLP, like I'm a big believer in 3D five nanometer because that's what gets us, you know, good mechanical properties, good clarity, good accuracy and reliability out of a material. 00:17:51:50 - 00:18:13:26 Speaker 1 And we saw 3D five has really dominated the past decade as it relates to DLP printing. But now that we can do 3D five nanometer LCD, you know, I think that the age of DLP is is numbered because we can get just as good results. To your point, off of a low cost frozen machine or, you know, sprint race moved over to three five nanometer for their desktop systems. 00:18:13:26 - 00:18:34:24 Speaker 1 So I think we all see that we don't have to compromise on material performance anymore with with an LCD printer. Now that we can do 385 in the cost in the barrier to entry is so low that yet there's no point for politics to compete for for large format model printing or for night guard printing, right? When you can do that on a very low cost system with all these biocompatible materials. 00:18:34:24 - 00:18:52:43 Speaker 1 But I think the applications I see on the poly jet space again multi material. So we talked about denture. We've talked about you know over dentures Crown bridge materials. Absolutely. Now that you'll be able to do more ceramic loading into these new age high viscosity print heads. But also like the hard soft night guard I think, you know we look at the night guard. 00:18:52:43 - 00:19:18:16 Speaker 1 The night guard has really been one of the few use cases in digital dentistry that we see 90% plus digital adoption on, like the single posterior crown. Why? Because we can leverage AI to design the night guard to design that single posterior crown. So I think that's where the floodgates really start to open for any kind of digital dental application is when we truly can rely on party AI to do good, thorough designs. 00:19:18:28 - 00:19:35:38 Speaker 1 And I think, you know, we've seen that the digital like our materials, even whether it's a soft splint material, they haven't replaced the need for those dual laminates. And a lot of these labs are still investing in analog labor to able to produce that dual laminate or that hard, soft night guard that we still see such volumes with. 00:19:35:52 - 00:19:52:50 Speaker 1 I mean, ask Glidewell how many they're producing for day, right? Like we see a huge volume there, and I think we haven't seen a digital solution for that yet. That's something that's uniquely positioned for Poly Jet to be able to address is where you can have that soft comfort on the inside, but have that rigid, durable material on the outside to help prevent bruxism. 00:19:52:50 - 00:20:17:09 Speaker 1 So you get the best of comfort and performance. So I think you'll see Poly Jet be able to exploit that application. Of course we talked about Crown and Bridge, but also I think craniofacial implants something that is near and dear to my heart, grafting materials. You know I think biomedical applications that poly jet has stresses is a huge play in the medical industry. 00:20:17:12 - 00:20:48:31 Speaker 1 You know with our anatomical model printers. To your point, being able to print, you know, true multi material and replicate, you know, strain on Westworld stuff. Right. We're able to replicate human and, you know, extract teeth and have blood all into a model. Like that's very cool for for simulation purposes. But think about taking it to the next level and actually being able to do patient specific bone graphs that we can, you know, fixate into the patient so that they can get quicker healing times, that we can create a better anatomical situation to, to do dental implants. 00:20:48:36 - 00:21:08:36 Speaker 1 These are all things that poly jet is is perfectly suited for. And something we see on the medical side right now with our medical modeling printers, the lack of access to cadavers case and how expensive they are. It's something we've got a great penetration into with our medical modeling printer, and it's just getting more and more accurate as it relates to to dental applications. 00:21:08:36 - 00:21:29:33 Speaker 1 We've got lots of hospitals, whether it be the the Mayo Clinic or others that are utilizing this technology chair side to be able to do real, complex, creative facial cases with patient specific anatomical models and has the exact same feedback as their patient, allowing for better patient outcomes, right? Quicker surgical times. I mean, these are all things that we know that is best suited for. 00:21:29:38 - 00:21:51:04 Speaker 3 It's incredible. The and the anatomical models I've seen, I've seen a few of those at dental conferences. Chicago comes to mind in particular. Stratus always has such a cool display of all the multi multi material stuff that you've printed, whether within or without dentistry. You know, one of my favorites, the silly ones are the fruit you can pick up and it's like, this is not real. 00:21:51:14 - 00:22:11:43 Speaker 3 You try to convince somebody on the other end of a camera that this is not a real banana. The, the thing you touched on that really sparked something in my mind that I hadn't thought about at all was the The Soft Heart, the Salford split material. Because you are you are talking about a process that is largely digitized in the way that we. 00:22:11:45 - 00:22:31:24 Speaker 3 Three D print models taking from an oral scan. So it's a very digital technology workflow, only to take it over to a bench and put it next to a machine that heats up a sheet of plastic to pull down on top of it. And now you're talking about a way that you can take that entire process off the table. 00:22:31:28 - 00:22:49:04 Speaker 3 Take all that time back into the into the day for the lab technician, and then print this direct application with multi material like that. That that sounds really fascinating is that something is on the horizon or is that something that's currently available. 00:22:49:09 - 00:23:11:04 Speaker 1 Yeah. It's not currently available in any bio in any regulated form out there today. By any means will be in the future I guarantee you. You'll see companies like Stratasys and others that have a place in multi jet or poly jet applications that will look to address that space, because again, Night Guard is something that is digitally accepted across the globe. 00:23:11:07 - 00:23:32:33 Speaker 1 You know where we see this huge penetration in digital. I think the fact of the matter is, is for for dentures here in the US, only 15% of the dentures in the US today are produced digitally. And the fact of the matter is, is that while while printing has, you know, maybe 40% of that, of that 15%, the only reason we're not at a higher clip is because we don't have the ideal solution yet. 00:23:32:33 - 00:23:51:00 Speaker 1 And I think that's where we're at, is best position to win is the fact that the last frontier to conquer is that high impact, and we know that that's coming. And once you do have the ability to print a high impact polychromatic denture, and that's what's going to win in these laboratories moving forward, not just from the labor burden, but from an inventory management perspective. 00:23:51:00 - 00:24:13:40 Speaker 1 I think we all know inside the lab you don't get all A1 and original pink dentures all day long like you get a large mix. So when you can print a platform of, you know, 30, 40 dentures at a time, all different color combinations. Knowing my lab in the past when I was at affordable running manufacturing, I needed about five very durable, very hardy DLP systems to compete with one poly jet. 00:24:13:45 - 00:24:30:40 Speaker 1 And I think that we'll see moving forward. That's what's going to win out, is how can we maximize footprint and how can we minimize the labor burden without having to compromise anything on the material qualities, whether that's esthetics or whether that's strength. So, you know, I think you touched on it with the models that you were printing there that had the multi colors on it. 00:24:30:43 - 00:24:49:43 Speaker 1 Like cool. That's a cool model, right. Being able to show that is great. We got plenty of customers that are using that for like they're using the model printing that are true patient specific for let's say super cases or their you know, their social six veneer cases, like that's where you can have value with that kind of color model printing. 00:24:49:43 - 00:25:13:07 Speaker 1 But does it actually have an impact on the end part? Again, models are throwaways, and at the end of the day, like Poly, Jet is best suited for these end use applications that require multi material multicolor. And that's truly what we're focusing on across the board, whether that be night guards in the hard, soft fashion or that be in in true high impact multicolor dentures or even dentures with a soft liner built into it. 00:25:13:12 - 00:25:33:19 Speaker 3 You really touched on a cool point there that I think we just slid right past. But you can print you can print multiple different colors at once, which is not something you see with your LCD, DLP, printers and stuff. So multi material, which seems obvious in retrospect. Of course you can, but can you speak a little bit more to that. 00:25:33:21 - 00:25:38:33 Speaker 3 You're saying like you can have multiple different colored denture bases all at once on the same print plate. 00:25:38:36 - 00:26:16:14 Speaker 1 The difference between poly jet and multi material jetting. There's a huge difference. Multi material jetting is essentially taking a deep resin right. And pumping it through a jetting head. So you don't get the benefits of multiple colors. You're still monochromatic in fashion right. Poly jet is different where instead of having let's say like a cartridge for A1 and a cartridge for A2 in your original pink, you're dark pink, etc., you have a cyan, a magenta, a yellow, a white, a clear no different than the inkjet printer you have sitting at home that's printing out paper, and you're able to take all those colors and mix those colors to be able to create, you know, millions 00:26:16:14 - 00:26:40:43 Speaker 1 of different color combinations and gradients, which is why you're able to actually print with, let's say, true incisive translucency and apical opacity, because you actually are able to blend all those colors together in a way where not only can you print, you know, all the multiple different denture base and denture tooth materials in a single print run, but then also internally in a single part where you can print all those different colors inside of a tooth. 00:26:40:43 - 00:27:08:04 Speaker 1 So you can actually have these, you know, multi-layered teeth effect that we don't have with with DLP, with SLA, and that we've lost out when we transition from that analog tooth that can be multi-layer. We've lost out on that when gone in the digital. And obviously we're able to overcome that with a CMI w approach or an inkjet poly jet approach, which again, is much, much different than being able to just jet a single monochromatic type of resin. 00:27:08:09 - 00:27:16:57 Speaker 3 Not to mention, it sounds like you probably pick up a great deal of accuracy not having to assemble two different components. Is that something you've seen a big benefit from? 00:27:17:02 - 00:27:35:38 Speaker 1 Sure, sure. And I think when I was said affordable, one of the things I had to do was convince our fleet of 1000 plus technicians that, you know, we could make an accurate digital product. That kind of been the knack on digital is, well, sure, we run into shrinkage and challenging with challenging accuracy problems with the analog materials. 00:27:35:40 - 00:27:51:52 Speaker 1 You know, we held ourselves to a standard, let's say plus or -400 microns in the analog space with all the different materials that were out there with DLP and with milling, we were in that plus or -200 micron range. And the reason we couldn't get any more accurate than that is we still had a lot of human error and we had support, whether it was with milling. 00:27:51:52 - 00:28:08:33 Speaker 1 And we had to, of course, remove the spruce or whether it was with printing, and we had to move those supports with the denture specifically, we always had to choose, are we going to be more accurate and how we fit onto the patient, or are we be more accurate on how the teeth fit into the base, or how the occlusion fits into the antagonist? 00:28:08:33 - 00:28:31:26 Speaker 1 So with that, you don't have to worry about that, which is why we test ourselves to plus or -100 microns. So you can see as we get more advanced with the technology, as we're able to print truly monolithic, that's where we're able to overcome some of the barriers that we had with the the legacy printing technologies of milling technologies, and why you don't have to compromise now on fit, whether that's on the side or whether that's on the occlusion side. 00:28:31:26 - 00:28:40:45 Speaker 1 And of course, it eliminates the human labor and human error that comes with setting teeth into a digital denture, regardless of whether that's a printed or a mill denture. 00:28:40:50 - 00:28:51:04 Speaker 3 That's amazing. That's that's incredible. One of the things that we also touched on earlier was you're talking about AI's influence on like, the Knight Guards. Where else do you see AI? 00:28:51:07 - 00:28:51:40 Speaker 2 Is that helped. 00:28:51:40 - 00:29:01:24 Speaker 3 With the development of any of this technology? And where else do you see AI in this, in this segment of the industry really being more useful than just a cool toy? 00:29:01:28 - 00:29:22:57 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, we're at the age of, of AI really starting to to emerge into dentistry, right? You know, we see it inside the scanners, for better or for worse. I think sometimes we've seen how AI gets involved and screws up bytes inside scanners. Think we've all seen that. But look, AI is becoming more and more a piece of technology that we have to lean on, whether it's inside the clinic or inside the lab. 00:29:23:02 - 00:29:47:14 Speaker 1 Look, I think we've seen it with like, guards and single posterior crowns and what that can do to the CAD cam space in the adoption of a workflow into digital. The fact of the matter is that dentures are much more complicated because we're talking about the full arch ecosystem now. So whether you're opposing a digital denture, whether you're opposing natural dentition, whether you're opposing a partial denture has a huge impact, and of course, on how you design that prosthetic. 00:29:47:14 - 00:30:09:02 Speaker 1 So again, I think there's still a lot of work that needs to be done for us to see AI truly dominate the full arch tooth replacement space, which means can we start leveraging AI tools to make that designers work easier and make them more efficient? I think that's probably the most realistic entry of AI into full on tooth replacement, where, you know, can we use AI to make sure that bites are better? 00:30:09:04 - 00:30:25:48 Speaker 1 Right? I think we've seen some of this AI come out where no longer we have to call the doctor back and say, hey, call that patient to come back because, you know, you unfortunately, doc didn't capture a good bite. This is clearly wrong. Well, now we can leverage AI to correct that bite for us after the patient has been in the chair and not have to come back. 00:30:25:50 - 00:30:55:50 Speaker 1 That makes a huge difference on the efficiency for us inside the lab. But also, how can we start to leverage AI for full and denture setups? That's going to be the waterfall moment for us for digital dentures is when we can truly rely on AI to make us more efficient when we're setting teeth. And maybe we can, of course, leverage some tools to be able to fine tune or be able to do some minor adjustments where we can use the brilliant brains of the dental technicians that are out there, so that AI can simply make them more efficient. 00:30:55:55 - 00:31:17:57 Speaker 3 It has its place, and I feel like you're right, like the growing, it's not quite where it needs to be with some of these things. The once again, you touched on the the the growing gap in or the shrinking pool of dental technicians that we have is some of the legacy technicians that more analog once over, he said they can set 20 dentures of teeth in a day. 00:31:18:02 - 00:31:44:09 Speaker 3 Easy. No problem trying to transition that knowledge and bring that into the younger generation and wrap that in technology that will increase the efficiency so that we can use it as a tool to maximize the number of people that we currently have. It's one of the things we talk about here on a lot is where AI is not taking jobs so much that it's actually making it possible to even do the job with the small number of technicians that we have now. 00:31:44:14 - 00:32:07:09 Speaker 3 How else do you see the changing floor landscape of the of the dental lab, like especially for the labs, the mom and pop labs, let's say the ones that are, you know, 1 to 7 employees or something like that. How does how does jet poly jet printing impact them? And what do you see just in general is like the change from where they were to where they're going to be in few years. 00:32:07:14 - 00:32:25:43 Speaker 1 Yeah, I think look, we know based on all the reports, we've lost a century, 20% of our workforce over the last 20 years. That's very obvious. And that trend is continuing. We see more consolidation at the top. We're the big are getting bigger. But I think there's two segments of dentistry where these the mom and pop labs have can compete with the big boys. 00:32:25:43 - 00:32:48:02 Speaker 1 And I think that's specifically tooth replacement and that specialized orthodontics, this is very much a relationship business when it comes to designing a fixed arch cases. Or it comes to the designing the collaboration on denture. There's a lot of back and forth between the lab and the clinician to be able to get preferences baked into that prosthetic that AI is going to eventually be able to tackle. 00:32:48:04 - 00:33:11:57 Speaker 1 But in the short term, if those smart, small, scrappy labs are able to leverage this technology to compete with the big guys, they absolutely it's there for the taking. So I think how apologetic is is best positioned. And I argue about this with some of the suits in the in the 3D printing industry is, look, I don't believe that the top 1% labs are going to dominate tooth replacement for the foregoing future. 00:33:11:57 - 00:33:31:00 Speaker 1 I really believe that the the smaller dental labs that have that type of relationship business, they're able to provide a good product, even if it costs more than some of the big laboratories are simply able to compete because they're able to provide that more hands on service, because, you know, they're smaller and they're scrappy or and their customers are gold to them. 00:33:31:00 - 00:34:01:33 Speaker 1 So I truly believe that poly jet, when price properly is going to be able to allow these, you know, these really high end denture technician led laboratories to be able to convert them into the digital age and allow them to be more efficient so that they can grow their businesses. So I think that's one of the unique technologies that actually offers that solution up to them with really with minimal, I would say, learning curve, as the technology gets more robust and is capable of of really being adopted on the design front. 00:34:01:36 - 00:34:13:16 Speaker 1 I think that's just going to empower more small demo labs to make the investment into Poly Jet, so they can provide those those high end prosthetics that still has their brilliance baked into the final restoration. 00:34:13:21 - 00:34:22:21 Speaker 3 And just become more approachable now for small labs as well. Like you've developed smaller solutions for them. And I am I correct in thinking that? 00:34:22:26 - 00:34:45:48 Speaker 1 Yeah, of course. I mean, look, the the J5, which is our flagship for for dentures, you know, it's still a $45,000 piece of equipment. But as you go down in, in entry level, you know, our J3 is roughly $20,000 hardware price. And of course, there's other things that go in, you know, material and training and onboarding and all the things that come with making that initial PL more than just the hardware cost. 00:34:45:48 - 00:35:04:36 Speaker 1 But yeah, the hardware is becoming more and more accessible. Of course, that's the future. You know, I'd love to see a jet in the future that's doing, you know, high impact dentures, high impact denture teeth that are different material. And maybe you've got a jet machine that also has flexible denture materials embedded into it as well. So you can print your flexible and your complete at the same time. 00:35:04:38 - 00:35:21:19 Speaker 1 You know, that's a machine that's going to cost well over $100,000. But I still think that there's a huge value in having smaller, faster, more nimble machines that can address the small laboratories and maybe even encroach into the chair side space. But I still think that chair side for Poly Jet is as well away. 00:35:21:24 - 00:35:40:07 Speaker 3 Well, I mean, what you've already cited, there's there's pretty, pretty big jump because poly jet was I mean I remember when it was first introduced it was looking at easy six figures there. And I was like, oh cool, what a nice idea. But when you start talking sub 50,000, especially between the 20 and $50,000 mark, now you're looking at it as well. 00:35:40:07 - 00:36:11:28 Speaker 3 I mean that what is a milling machine cost you know. And what is a million machine do. Well it basically prints money. If you if you're using it for what you're supposed to use it for, it prints money. And well, that's exactly what this should do to. And it becomes a whole lot more approachable when you're under that $50,000 mark, especially one of the things you were talking about earlier that I thought was particularly interesting is the easier approach, the lower threshold of onboarding, to get technicians using this kind of printer versus your typical LCD, DLP kind of stuff. 00:36:11:33 - 00:36:32:04 Speaker 3 I mean, anyone who knows printing, anyone who's seen printing online that isn't just, you know, like your your tabletop hobby toy knows that printing is a messy business, and it sounds like you've done a good deal to bring that down and messy complication there and just make it a more straightforward process. 00:36:32:09 - 00:36:54:36 Speaker 1 Sure. Yeah. I think when I look back to you, I was spoiled. My first printer that I ever owned was a jet printer. My startup. I went to go work for Envision Tech. It was a big transition for me to get understanding of how important orientation, support, structure, you know, coding Ini files that you could get your proper results like it's much more of a manual process and how I like to explain it to my users. 00:36:54:36 - 00:37:16:24 Speaker 1 Back then, apologetic is more like driving an automatic or and DLP sla LCD is more like driving a manual because you just have to be so much more knowledgeable is an operator in terms of orientation, strategy, layout, etc. to get the most out of the hardware. However, I do believe that what may be successful up to this point is just these open architectures. 00:37:16:24 - 00:37:43:31 Speaker 1 And even if they're semi-open, I think what we as dental laboratory users want to see at the end of the day is to have the ability of choice. I think that's what it lacks right now, is the ability to go out there and have, you know, different branded materials with different OEMs that have 100 plus years of experience in this space and being able to let's say you have their brand on a material, and that's something that Stratasys, up until I joined had really been, you know, they own the whole ecosystem, right? 00:37:43:33 - 00:38:09:38 Speaker 1 The hardware, the material, the software. One of the things that I am quickly changing is just opening up the doors to third party manufacturing, because I think at the end of the day, the users want choice. And I think you're going to see a lot there in the future from Stratasys as we look to partner with these dental printing companies or just these dental companies in general, and having their branded materials with their brand esthetics and their shade knowing all built into a into a jet format. 00:38:09:40 - 00:38:28:14 Speaker 1 I think, again, if I look at what Stratasys Moat is, it is the hardware poly jet. It is so complicated. We've seen many companies try to replicate it and many times then fail after investing, you know, tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars into the hardware. So it's something that we, you know, being the inventors of the technology and having the most experience. 00:38:28:16 - 00:38:51:48 Speaker 1 You know, there's the reason why there's only one polychromatic poly jet system that's on the market today. However, we are not at Stratasys, a dental company. And I think I'm a living testament to that. Being the first dental person to come in and lead the dental version vertical of Stratasys, they've never had that before. It's always been somebody from the medical industry or from the from different industries coming in and trying to lead dental. 00:38:51:50 - 00:39:09:25 Speaker 1 You know, I'm a true dental person coming in and trying to make an impact on the business through a dental lens. And part of that means owning up to what we're not great at, which is, you know, frankly, we need more material development, and we need to lean into these blue chip OEMs to get their materials validated on our piece of, of complicated hardware. 00:39:09:25 - 00:39:12:14 Speaker 1 And I think you're going to see a lot more come from there in the near future. 00:39:12:19 - 00:39:21:57 Speaker 3 That's really exciting. That's the first I've heard of Stratus adopting or bringing in third party materials at all. That's that's super exciting to hear from. 00:39:22:02 - 00:39:36:40 Speaker 1 We need to I think, again, you look at what has made DLP successful. It's been the large variety of materials that you have on the market today that you can put into your machine, because I truly believe at the end of the day, it's it's choice that wins. 00:39:36:45 - 00:40:06:45 Speaker 3 Absolutely. And I mean, competition makes everybody better really it does. And and bringing in these third party materials seem like a really good way to not only invite other people in the space to work with this incredible technology, but also to kind of shock the world into developing more materials that are more optimized for this awesome technology. Which speaking of, what are some of the things that are shipping from Stratus and like, say, the next 12 months that you're most excited about? 00:40:06:48 - 00:40:24:57 Speaker 1 I'd say stay tuned there. You know, next year is an IDs here. So there'll be lots of fun stuff, I think gearing up for for IDs. Right. So I think that's that's, you know, definitely our primary focus, of course, because we've seen how well received the adoption of Troodon has been around the globe. We've gotten more and more regular regulations across the globe. 00:40:24:57 - 00:40:43:55 Speaker 1 I was just in India two weeks ago helping the government. They're trying scale dentures. It takes three years to get a denture in India right now because of the backlog they have, just because of the people that need dentures there and because of the lack of technicians they have. So again, we know this technology is the opportunity to bring more people smiles. 00:40:43:55 - 00:41:03:12 Speaker 1 So I think the only thing that's holding this technology back from being mass adopted is, is high impact strength. Also, that opens up the over denture classification as well, right? I think all of us are only going to choose a material for our over dentures that are high impact. So you know, that's our holy grail. That's what we're striving to to meet. 00:41:03:12 - 00:41:07:38 Speaker 1 And that's hopefully we'll be able to announce here in the very near future. 00:41:07:45 - 00:41:15:21 Speaker 3 That's excellent. And can you speak a little bit more to Troodon because it has I mean, I think we've kind of tiptoed around it, but we haven't talked about it directly yet. 00:41:15:26 - 00:41:35:24 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah. I mean, true dent is, again, it's the first polychromatic monolithic 3D printed denture that that hit the market. You know, they launched it, I want to say, in early 2023, which is when it first launched. So if you look at where it's at today, you know, there's upward of 250,000 patients now that have had their their smiles restored with true dent. 00:41:35:38 - 00:41:55:07 Speaker 1 You know, firsthand I did you know, well over 15,000 of those while I was while I was at affordable and got to see firsthand how the accuracy was received, how the esthetics were received. We did we did a 2000 patient blind study like a Pepsi challenge, again, producing an analog denture out of our central facility and producing a true dent denture. 00:41:55:07 - 00:42:11:55 Speaker 1 And and having the patients answer a question here and the doctors answer a question, they're not telling them which one was which. And it was very, very clear to us that the true dent denture was was better received than the analog denture made by our best technician. So I think that's a good vote of confidence. Again, the one knock on it is that it's it's low impact. 00:42:11:55 - 00:42:37:12 Speaker 1 So if you drop it in the sink you can expect some cracks. You can expect some fractures. Right. Which always is going to be limiting to mass adoption. But you know, the fact that you can just press reprint and be able to reproduce that in a timely fashion obviously is valuable. But I know and this is something that I strive for just as an operator is I want to have the reliability of the material so that it can last in the mouth for the 5 to 7 years that we know insurance is cleared, very important. 00:42:37:12 - 00:42:53:31 Speaker 1 Then it lasts. If we look at Troodon right now, it's got a really good flexible strength, which is actually great when you're comparing it from a tooth perspective. So because the same trend is the same material for the tooth and for the base, it's got great flexible strength, which means it's where is actually phenomenal compared to even milled materials. 00:42:53:31 - 00:43:09:40 Speaker 1 It's actually better if you look at volumetric where loss in many of the studies that are out there and where it's great and flexible strength, it's at the expense of fracture toughness. So I think that's part of why it's weak, because you have to trade off those mechanical properties. And that was the approach strategists took back when they launched the material. 00:43:09:40 - 00:43:28:21 Speaker 1 It's not the approach I would have taken if I was in the role back then. But the fact of the matter is, is it's a great material for these economy dentures, for these partial dentures, for these provisional dentures, these immediate dentures, where, you know, you expected to last a year or so. I didn't warranty it for more than a year when I was said affordable. 00:43:28:21 - 00:43:42:38 Speaker 1 And I think that's my goal, is to have a material that you can get behind to be a true long term material, and we're on our way to being able to to bring that to market. So again, super excited for the next generation of Troodon, whatever we may call that, because that's going to be what I think that we'll see. 00:43:42:40 - 00:43:47:33 Speaker 1 Real big adoption of of digital polychromatic monolithic dentures. 00:43:47:38 - 00:44:07:38 Speaker 3 That does sound very exciting. And also I think kind of speaks to the insurance companies lag behind where we are with modern technology on a lot of this stuff, the the approach to what even is a denture and why do we make it the way that we make it. I mean, wanted to have to last 5 to 7 years before. 00:44:07:40 - 00:44:34:00 Speaker 3 Well, because it's time consuming and difficult to make a denture by hand, you know, even the experienced analog tax are, you know, not going to whip one up in 20 minutes. Whereas now, like you were saying, you could literally just print another one right from the file and assuming that, you know, their mouth hasn't somehow drastically changed since they last got their denture in the next one, and even then, a little bit of a quick 3D scan, boom, you adapted to the new situation. 00:44:34:00 - 00:45:04:09 Speaker 3 Not a big deal. That's it seems to be a part where the market is trying to catch up to the technology a little bit, which is, you know, which is part of which is part of any industry. I suppose one of the things that I wanted to ask you before, before I forget, is the you mentioned earlier before we started recording, and I wanted to ask, what's one of the cooler things that you've 3D printed and or what are some of the more fun, fascinating things you printed with the Stratus printers? 00:45:04:14 - 00:45:26:28 Speaker 1 I'd say you cool things. Putting my medical nerd hat on is, of course, the, you know, the full body, patient specific anatomical models. We had one user in Cologne who came actually to to LMT this year, who she did a workshop on how they're doing their implant and their suture training, where we truly can replicate the ligament in a printed model. 00:45:26:33 - 00:45:45:24 Speaker 1 You know, the gum tissue feels like gum. So they can do true extraction simulation where it actually feels just like extracting a real tooth. I mean, that's that's the type of stuff you can do with a jet that you simply can't do with anything else. Actually, having models that, that bleed as you tried to practice a suture technique is super cool. 00:45:45:28 - 00:46:23:52 Speaker 1 And then of course, like the life saving medical benefits that come from doing a really complicated spine surgery and being able to get in there and do it on the model before you actually get in there and do it on the patient is, you know, transcendent and being able to provide a better level of care. Again, I, I remember one of the first cases I did where we did a huge craniofacial case in a required a lot of different sub implants, cranial implants, being able to 3D print everything out, practice that on the model before we got into the Operatory Theater, just allowed the surgeon have that much more confidence, have that much better result. 00:46:23:57 - 00:46:48:38 Speaker 1 And honestly, these models are so intricate and cool that it's unlike anything else really. Again, I feel like in dentistry we're just entering the golden age of poly jet as we get more biscuits, print heads and we get new materials and and new OEMs are backing these materials. So really excited to see what the users do with it, because, you know, it's never the OEMs that come up with the unique in the cool use cases. 00:46:48:38 - 00:47:05:31 Speaker 1 It's always the users. It's always the community. I truly believe in crowdsourcing, truly believe in right to repair. So, you know, to your point. Well, it's great that we can just press reprint. I think it's incredibly important that as we come up with these new materials, that we also have protocols for how to repair. So and I think that's what you're going to see. 00:47:05:31 - 00:47:24:07 Speaker 1 Stresses grounded in is moving forward. Here is excellence in the product. And of course being able to have materials that are supported by some of the blue chip, you know, OEMs that we all love and and support and trust here and dentistry moving forward. So excited to work with with evolution, excited to work with everybody to move forward. 00:47:24:07 - 00:47:34:14 Speaker 1 Because, you know, our goal is to get polished in the hands of anybody that's going to be doing dentures in the future, whether you're a one man laboratory or whether you're a, you know, a thousand man laboratory. 00:47:34:19 - 00:47:42:52 Speaker 3 That's so exciting. And one last thing. Where would you say if if somebody's listening to this and they're like, wow, that sounds awesome. Where do they get started? 00:47:42:57 - 00:48:04:02 Speaker 1 Yeah, I mean, look, there's there's great blogs that are out there in terms of following digital dentistry. You guys do a great job and promoting digital dentistry. So I think look on the podcast side, you know, there's there's great there's great opportunities out there to learn more. But I mean I'm a sucker for YouTube, right. Go out there on YouTube, start learning about more 3D printing and digital dentistry. 00:48:04:14 - 00:48:26:30 Speaker 1 You know, there was a great article that was on CNN yesterday, specifically about how Ram is using 3D printing to provide more access for dentures to people that are in remote locations. So go out there and do some YouTube searches. And then, of course, I think following the big 3D printing blogs like 3D print comm, 3D printing industry, all 3D, these are all great places. 00:48:26:31 - 00:48:33:07 Speaker 1 If you really want to nerd out on just the technology in general and kind of be at the cutting edge of what's coming out, awesome. 00:48:33:09 - 00:48:40:28 Speaker 3 That is awesome. And where do you have an online presence? Working people to find out more about you and Stratus online? 00:48:40:33 - 00:49:03:45 Speaker 1 Yeah, yeah, I mean go Stratasys. We actually have our own dental page now. So if you go to Stratasys. Com, you'll get directed to a full dental industry page, which we're going to have, you know, white papers, research articles, testimonials. And then for me you'll find me on the conventional socials. My Instagram handles just see on cabinet. And I typically and posting stuff about about dental 3D printing quite a bit. 00:49:03:50 - 00:49:21:12 Speaker 3 That's awesome. Well thank you for being here man. This has been a really fun conversation, and I've learned a lot about Poly Jet that I thought I knew about, that I apparently didn't. Man, that's very exciting to see where this is going and I can't I can't wait to see what comes out next. And thank you everyone for joining us for this episode of the Evolution of Dental Podcast. 00:49:21:19 - 00:49:39:26 Speaker 3 Please look for us on all the social media platforms at Evolution of Dental Podcast. Look for us on all of the podcast streaming platforms. We release new episodes every Friday. Please remember to like, subscribe, share the show with your friends. It helps more than you know. And please never stop evolving.